EDGED WEAPON DEFENSE: Is or was the 21-foot Rule Valid?

This is a two part article with two links to outside articles.

Part I
For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons.

Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet.


The implication, therefore, is that when dealing with an edged-weapon wielder at anything less than 21 feet an officer had better have his gun out and ready to shoot before the offender starts rushing him or else he risks being set upon and injured or killed before he can draw his sidearm and effectively defeat the attack.

Read More about part I of this article

Part II

3. MORE DISTANCE. "In reality, the 21-Foot Rule--by itself--may not provide officers with an adequate margin of protection," says Dr. Bill Lewinski, FSRC's executive director. "It's easily possible for suspects in some circumstances to launch a successful fatal attack from a distance greater than 21 feet."
Among other police instructors, John Delgado, retired training officer for the Miami-Dade (FL) PD, has extended the 21-Foot Rule to 30 feet. "Twenty-one feet doesn't really give many officers time to get their gun out and fire accurately," he says. "Higher-security holsters complicate the situation, for one thing. Some manufacturers recommend 3,000 pulls to develop proficiency with a holster. Most cops don't do that, so it takes them longer to get their gun out than what's ideal. Also shooting proficiency tends to deteriorate under stress. Their initial rounds may not even hit."
Read More about the 21 foot rule

Too close - dont underestimate the knife

Dan Inosanto on the 21 foot rule.

Shooting Equipment Placement

Thoughts on equipment placement, conditioned response, reaction time, Hick’s Law, the 21 foot guideline, and the OODA loop...
Recently, a transit Officer was convicted of homicide after he shot an individual to death while attempting to control the subject’s behavior. According to the Officer’s testimony, he thought he was reaching for his Taser but discharged his duty firearm instead, killing the subject.

read article

21 foot rule different perspectives

Gun guy:
1. No one can surprise me.
2. I can empty a mag in your chest before you get to me from 21 feet
3. My bullets will stop you
4. I can also move and you can't follow me
5. Not only can I shoot center mass under extreme pressure, I can also do head shots

Blade guy:
1. I can surprise you and it really isn't that hard.
2. Your bullets may not stop me, hit or miss
3. If you move I can see you move and I can adjust
4. You will poke a hole in me, and effectiveness depends on where you hit me. I will be taking parts of your body off.

Handgun Drills, Standards, and Training Page : Tueller Drill

Tueller Drill (after Sgt. Dennis Tueller)

Teaches: speed draw and fire under stress.
Requires: three people, or two people and a timer.

The Tueller drill is essentially an exercise, under stress, to measure your draw and first shot in terms of distance rather than time. The area that a charging assailant is able to cover in the time it takes you to draw and fire gives you a good idea of what a "safe distance" threshold is. Read More

How Close is Too Close by Dennis Tueller

The "good guy" with the gun against the "bad guy" with the knife (or machete, axe, club, tire-iron, etc.). "No contest", you say. "The man with the gun can't lose." Or can he? A great deal depends on his ability with that gun and the proximity of his opponent.

If, for example, our hero shoots his would-be attacker at a distance of 20 yards, he loses. Not the fight, you understand, but most probably his freedom because he will almost certainly be charged with murder. The only thing that justifies your shooting another human being is the immediate need to stop him from trying to kill you (or someone else), remember? Read More

Explaining the deadly force decision: the opportunity factor

Part I: We looked at the ramifications of bad advice on armed self defense being given to the gun-buyer at a dealer'.s shop. Part II: we defined the levels of homicide. Part III: justifiable homicide was quantified. Part IV: the first of the necessary ingredients for a justifiable homicide, the ability factor, was detailed.

The triad that completes the situation that warrants justifiable use of lethal force, "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent," are ability, opportunity, and jeopardy. Read More

Wikipedia entry on The Tueller Drill

The Tueller Drill is a self-defense training exercise to prepare against a short-range knife attack when armed only with a holstered handgun.

One would think that a gun beats a knife every time[citation needed]. With superior weaponry, the fight should be easily won[citation needed]. But Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department, showed that it was not that simple[citation needed]. Read More

Use of Deadly Force: Pre-Shooting Conduct and the 21 Foot Rule

A circumstance that officers often face is the suicidal individual who, in essence, holds him or herself hostage. These are difficult cases. While such cases require a police response, officers sometimes are caught between a rock and hard place. Much has been written about the concept of “suicide by cop” but the fact remains that officers are often called to deal with these situations and are expected to prevent the suicide without causing injury or death. At times this is an impossible task. A common denominator that runs through this type of case is an attack on the officer’s tactics in approaching the individual. While at the moment the officer shot, he or she was in danger, the theory is that the officer did something that was tactically incorrect in the approach that contributed to the need to use deadly force. Read Article

The 21 foot rule, alternate ending

21 Foot Rule - lightsaber version

21 foot rule new and improved

21 foot rule, flesh isn't the same as cardboard

21 foot rule hanging out at the park

21 foot rule Knife guy final video

21 foot rule up to May 20-2010 Sped up

If cardboard could move at 21 feet

Mi Machete y Yo

3 card board people on the move with sword

21 foot rule the next generation

21 foot rule unstoppable

21 foot rule Anonymous

Gun Safety in a Deadly Force Situation

The knife guy

http://www.cafepress.com/slashslash.497550774

Rwanda genocide part 3 of 4.flv

Fact1: Most common weapon is the machete. Fact 2. More were killed by machete in 6 months than by the entire Nazi war machine in any given 6 month span of WWII. Estimated at more than 900,000 hacked to death

Good Samaritan Kills Woman's Attacker

Vietnamese Gang Machete Attack in San Jose, California

machete murder

a machete murder. Yes, people do get attacked with long bladed weapons in modern times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjXQU85Ayic

Machete attack victim recalls assault

Michael Coren on the Ottawa machete attack - part 1

KNIFE CRIME: Straight From The Streets

BBC1: Knife Crime in South London (ft. Nathan John)

Me fighting off a machete wielding crackhead at work

Court TV : Machete Robbery

Student Kills a Man with Samurai Sword

VB sword attack victim

Samurai sword attack

Any time a person has a knife, they should NEVER be shot?

Police Knife

Shooting of knife wielding drunk man NOT police brutality

Suspect pulls knife out on police officer / copper / cop

Knives Vs Cops

John T. Williams: Dashboard Video of SPD Shooting (AUDIO RIGHT CHANNEL O...

Knife wounds

What I see in this video is knife slash wounds. If they had been knife thrust wounds, the people would be dead.

shotgun versus knife

Knife attack with no time to react

Knife versus gun again: the element of surprise

Guy with knife shows some guys with guns what is what

Somebody should count how many gunshots go off until this guy goes down.

Shooting someone doesn't mean stopping them

And forget handguns not stopping people, here they are talking about the M1 Carbine, more powerful than a .357 Magnum.

"the main reason my men lost confidence in the carbine was because they would put a bullet right in a Chi-Com’s chest at 25 yards range, and he wouldn’t stop. This happened to me. The bullet struck home; the man simply winced and kept on coming. There were about half a dozen of my men who made this same complaint; some of them swore they had fired three or four times, hit the man each time, and still not stopped him."

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/arms-chosin-few/

So yeah, you have a gun and you can shoot someone charging you with a sword(some of you). It still doesn't always stop them.

Cops shot and critically wounded a knife-wielding young man in upper Manhattan early Sunday - the second police-involved shooting in as many days, police and witnesses said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/forums/thread.jspa?threadID=111184&start=0&tstart=120

21 foot rule now 30 or 31-LEO's and Miliary only

For those that know, and have the training, the current measure is now 30 food or 31 foot, as they're figuring out, probably after incidents and more importantly, a lot more training, it's too close at 21 feet. (NFS!)
http://www.survivaltopics.com/forums/firearms-ammo/8269-21-foot-rule-now-30-31-leos-miliary-only.html

Police Follow 21-Foot Shooting Rule

SAINT PAUL, Minn. - It was a split second decision for St. Paul officers Monday night at the Super 8 Motel: shoot, or don't shoot. Police follow a 21-foot rule to make the decision.

Police say the suspect in this case was armed with a heavy utility knife, one in each hand.
He was within just a few strides of the officers.

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/dpp/news/police-follow-21-foot-shooting-rule-july-20-2010

Use of Deadly Force: Pre-Shooting Conduct and the 21 Foot Rule

A circumstance that officers often face is the suicidal individual who, in essence, holds him or herself hostage. These are difficult cases. While such cases require a police response, officers sometimes are caught between a rock and hard place. Much has been written about the concept of “suicide by cop” but the fact remains that officers are often called to deal with these situations and are expected to prevent the suicide without causing injury or death. At times this is an impossible task. A common denominator that runs through this type of case is an attack on the officer’s tactics in approaching the individual. While at the moment the officer shot, he or she was in danger, the theory is that the officer did something that was tactically incorrect in the approach that contributed to the need to use deadly force.

http://www.patc.com/weeklyarticles/21foot_rule.shtml

21 foot rule thoughts by Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Jr.

Great Blog for Gun legislation news and shootings

http://goodguyswithguns.blogspot.com/

Rethinking the 21 foot rule

http://www.allbusiness.com/public-administration/national-security-international/942427-1.html

Real experts moving blades around

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VpHkZ3FdR0

21 foot rule Tshirt

http://www.cafepress.com/slashslash.444582781

Tueller Drill Training method

Wikipedia entry for Tueller Drill

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

Gun guys in a forum discussing the 21 foot rule

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulletin/concealed-carry-issues-discussions/12706-21-ft-rule.html

Article on 21 foot rule

For more than 20 years now, a concept called the 21-Foot Rule has been a core component in training officers to defend themselves against edged weapons.

Originating from research by Salt Lake City trainer Dennis Tueller and popularized by the Street Survival Seminar and the seminal instructional video "Surviving Edged Weapons," the "rule" states that in the time it takes the average officer to recognize a threat, draw his sidearm and fire 2 rounds at center mass, an average subject charging at the officer with a knife or other cutting or stabbing weapon can cover a distance of 21 feet. see article link below.


http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/articles/102828-Edged-Weapon-Defense-Is-or-was-the-21-foot-rule-valid-Part-1/

Guy throws cold steel kukri at "gun guy" 20 feet away

Real footage knife versus gun

Pekiti Tirsia Kali - Knife vs Gun

21 foot rule sword slashing turkey

21 foot rule with trailmaster and guinunting

21 foot rule less talk and more action